RPE vs EPDM?

[Duxwig]

My order for EPDM fell through.
I’ve seen some recommendations BTL Liners but appears they just sell RPE.

Cost is half of EPDM and plan to still use under layment.

Need to seam two pieces together and the sales guy said they heat seal together.

Anyone have thoughts / suggestions?

[brokensword]

My order for EPDM fell through.
I’ve seen some recommendations BTL Liners but appears they just sell RPE.

Cost is half of EPDM and plan to still use under layment.

Need to seam two pieces together and the sales guy said they heat seal together.

Anyone have thoughts / suggestions?

hey there, Dux; good to see you! As you already know, I'm a fan of HDRPE for the cost and durability factor. It IS harder to work with re folds, but when compared to weight and cost (you don't need an underlayment with HDRPE unless you're putting it on rocky/sharp ground. Most ponds don't need the underlayment) it's a no brainer. And BTL is where I got mine; nice guy (salesman) with good follow up. That was in 2019. Weight tends to make the shipping cost go up, so glad HDRPE is lighter. Also, easier to move into position. Mine was 30x40'. I had more issue because I was working inside a structure and had limited area to work with. Open air, should be easy. If you do your homework, you'll see lifetimes of over 25 years. I know the smaller one I took out in 2019 looked dirty but was in great shape. I ended up using a part of it to enlarge my bog v1 liner (one of my mistakes with the first dig!). Most use the EPDM, but that's because it was the standard. Horses for courses, methinks!

Please do start up a build thread in the Pond Construction forum so others can follow along, no doubt watching with libation in hand at all your hard work!!!

[j.w]

another-fish-welcome.gif

@Duxwig

Glad you could make it here :arrow:

[Duxwig]

Did my email go through or bounce back? Looked to be the latter?

Found this: https://pondinformer.com/pond-liner-material-guide/

Watched some videos to see how Rpe vs EPDM formed. Rpe def seems doable for what I’ve got, and if I get a bit bigger to accommodate folds, it won’t be much more. Then less $$ as far as primers and tapes and what not for EPDM seam. The HDRPE seemed stiFF with capital F’s.

Some issues on lifespan it seems but I’m willing to give RPE a go. I think I’m more EPDM-puncture shy now than anything. “Oh don’t worry” isn’t in my mind with our dog jumping in/out w his nails, me being a bumble and dropping a rock on it, rock-laddened bottom and shelf means less walking in it/clean ability for fear of puncture.

[brokensword]

Did my email go through or bounce back? Looked to be the latter?

Found this: https://pondinformer.com/pond-liner-material-guide/

Watched some videos to see how Rpe vs EPDM formed. Rpe def seems doable for what I’ve got, and if I get a bit bigger to accommodate folds, it won’t be much more. Then less $$ as far as primers and tapes and what not for EPDM seam. The HDRPE seemed stiFF with capital F’s.

Some issues on lifespan it seems but I’m willing to give RPE a go. I think I’m more EPDM-puncture shy now than anything. “Oh don’t worry” isn’t in my mind with our dog jumping in/out w his nails, me being a bumble and dropping a rock on it, rock-laddened bottom and shelf means less walking in it/clean ability for fear of puncture.

@Duxwig yeppers, I got it; I'll resend my response from yesterday again. You should have gotten it though as nothing bounced my way...IMO, the HDRPE would be a lot better for any animal walking on it, compared to the rubber. And yeah, it's kinda stiff but I don't really notice the folds once they get covered by algae or deco rock.

[Duxwig]

Last email received Wednesday night w the info on the hard drive. Nothing suddenly in spam, still have the message list.

[Duxwig]

Wait, I did receive it, was just looking at wrong account junk in my phone.
Sure as heck it got marked as spam.
Will read it in a bit here.

[Duxwig]

Probably start a different thread at some point when I have time - but from email - I still have absolutely 0 clue on what to use as the weir inside the bog box which would fit in the size.

[j.w]

@Duxwig I bought my first liner from a roofing company and was able to choose a thicker type of rubber. It was 60 mil grade,thicker than the regularly use EPDM and they might have even had a thicker one. It was all on rolls and I just told them how much I needed and they cut it off. We put it in our truck and brought it home. Man that was some tough stuff. Harder to work w/tho when so thick.

My second pond liner for my bigger pond I bought from an irrigation company out here when we moved further north. I chose the regular kind this time and think it was 40 mil EPDM and it has been in my pond for many years now. It was cheaper at both the roofing place and the irrigation company then if I bought from a pond supply place. Maybe check around see if you have a place like those around you. Might be cheaper or might not after all these years.

[brokensword]

Probably start a different thread at some point when I have time - but from email - I still have absolutely 0 clue on what to use as the weir inside the bog box which would fit in the size.

@Duxwig , this is what I'd do; lower that hill of dirt by 2 rows of stone (on the back wall). Now you have a longer bog base. You should have about 4' x 14" give or take.

Build a 4x4 ground contact treated wood box that is 12" high in front and 18" on sides and back. Interconnect the corners every other row, drive 12" landscape nails into every other row, 8" apart. You want the wall layers connected and the corners too.

Put in your liner which sticks up 2" higher than the back bog box wall, goes in and up the front wall, down the hill and into your river below at least by 6". Your river liner comes up under this liner by 12" Be sure to carve any 'shelve' in the remaining dirt below the bog box before you lay in this liner. This INCLUDES providing a 6" shelf IN FRONT of the bog because this is where you'll put rock to cover that 12" of vertical liner covering the wood.

Build your bog manifold. If you plan on vertical clean out risers, make sure they extend 2" at least higher than the pea gravel height. Screw caps on this riser. Manifold has slits only on the horizontal part below the gravel. Make them slits, don't drill holes. Use a circular saw, cut 1/3 the way through, every 2-4" or so.

Hook up your flex pvc lead which should have a union at the top and a valve. Where the flex pvc comes in OVER the bog wall, install another tee and short riser + cap (in which you'll drill a 1/4" hole) for anit-siphon purposes. Also at this juncture, you should have a tee and another valve--this portion will go to your weir.

Place your weir IN the bog; elevate it so the blade portion sticks out OVER the front wall.

Attach the second tee-d off lead from your bog feed to the weir via bulkhead fitting ON the weir. I'd also have a union here, too. You can probably reduce from your bog feed to the weir by going from the 1-1/2" to 1" fittings to reduce cost. So that means you'd need; (1) 1-1/2" tee, a 1-1/2" to 1" reducer, a 1" ball valve, and a 1" union before you attach to the 1" bulkhead fitting you installed on your weir.


Put in your pea gravel up to the front wall height. You're almost done.

Test everything out BEFORE you start camo with rocks and plants. Then once happy for the moment, cover the hill on your shelves-over-liner with rock and plantings. Realize, water IS going to come down that front wall, probably a weeping style, but it could gush in places if you want. I'll tell you how to accomplish this if this is your vision; it's what I did with MY weeping bog wall. You have options.

And if you plan on diverting some water to the right as you once talked, tailor your front shelves to create a channel in that direction WITH the liner and use rocks to support/hide after the fact. Or just create a swale and let it flow down in that direction. Again, you have options.

So, I haven't sent the email again, but much of what I just covered here (in better fashion, actually) was in that last response. There are details in still, so I'll resend anyhow, but for actual build, use what is above as better/clearer/easier to understand. Some of this, I'm making up on the fly and when I re-think, it gets clearer!! heh heh

Any questions?

[brokensword]

Probably start a different thread at some point when I have time - but from email - I still have absolutely 0 clue on what to use as the weir inside the bog box which would fit in the size.

sorry, don't know how I missed this particular query; been a long long few days with trying to get everything put back and working like it was, but 99% done now.

Weir; I thought you already had one, but if not, what I did was go to the big box store and get a plastic file container with a top. I then 'cut' my weir blade portion and formed it with a heat gun. What you do is, cut vertically about 2" from each side. I went down about 1-1/2" or so. Then using a table top as a straight edge (put something down first if you're doing this on something decorative--I used my work bench) and heat the area in a horizontal line from bottom of cut to bottom of cut. As it softens you can then bend it. Once you get it bent some, then use the table and a board and some weight to bend that seam straight to a 90 deg angle. If you don't do this with some precision, what you'll end up with is a warped, curved, very unflat blade.

Now, IF you're going to use this sticking out over that wood member on the front wall, you can actually use the wood as support and it may not matter as much re flattness. If not flat though, you'll find your 'sheet' of water wants to drip and move in less than a 'sheet' way. Which may be okay for your vision.

ALLL that said, you can also just buy a weir pre-made, cut the blade to the length you want it sticking out over the bog wall, and be done with it. I'm on the cheap side and can use tools, so for me, a $10 file case with top and DIY was easy.

IF you go this way, make sure it has a top because you'll use it to cover after you set it up; it's EASY then to place camo rocks on top, like flat slate pieces and some smaller round stone or stone to match the rest of your waterfall hill. Without the top, you'd need a wide enough flat slate to cover the entire thing. Too, you could have no top and put floaters in there, but you'd have to watch they don't block the outlet.

Post up any other questions if you're unsure. It really isn't that hard if you think of this as a box with a slide attached and a piece of plumbing in the back that extends over your bog wall front. You don't need a lot of width or length, just a place for the water to fill and then overflow. Take a measuring tape to the box store and measure what they have.
I think you could get away with something 16" deep, 8" wide, and 8" across the front (the weir opening). I think mine is like 18" x 12" and 16" deep. Something like that. And i did this twice; once for each waterfall on MY hill.

[Duxwig]

Headed out of town for the weekend. Thanks for the info again. My head is in two different spots. One on the pump area and the other on the bog lol.

Hopefully post some more pictures / questions as I physically locate stuff with big.
Purchased the pump and made my own graphic based off all our text to make sure I’m visualizing right.

Hard to see but there is a tier just under the water line where I drew the flex pvc lines, hose to be concealed by rocks and junk.

50’ of the flex will get everything done in the bog and ~20 left.



It’s hard to see in the picture and they collapsed a bit, but there is a tier which surrounds the pump. I just started to form this out at end of season and need to reinforce it more as things warm up.
It’ll be about a 4” tier horizontally around. Also considering snapping paver blocks to 8” x 4” or so rectangles to stand vertically to further reinforce the walls, then layment and liner over.
I have to dig the hole about a foot deeper still.
The plan I have is for a hole, something to raise the pump off bottom, pump.
Resting on the tier horizontally, ~6 inches under water, is a piece of slate, flag, etc that I’ll form to a trapezial shape. It’ll rest on the tier to conceal the hole/pump beneath. It’s likely big enough to conceal most of the pvc adapter coming out also.

Imagine the white being roughly where the walls/tiers will be, the red is the piece of slate/flag/whatever laying across, under the water.