Pond Reconstruction Project (+ Bog)

[j.w]

Looking so much like a real pond now and you can tweak it all up when you have the time. This is the fun part, making it look just like you want it so you can eventually sit back and relax w/the wifey and kids and watch the plants and the fish grow!

littlepond.gif

[Duxwig]

Found a really cool hollow log in the river at the park I hauled home.

As far as planting - non lilys - I’m not considering planting directly into the gravel given how entrenched the previous plants were. I’m not really big on the hard pot structures/square mesh containers for ponds (but get lilys or others may need it).

For other shallower plants I’m still considering some flexible type barrier. I’m really leaning towards a felt/underlayment type material so it’s thinner, permeable, and easy to fit in weird space, but keep the top smaller than the bottom (root growth space). Second consider burlap but it would break down way too fast.

Im about to hit the store to get some material to make into root bags - other than preference anything I should be aware of?

[brokensword]

Found a really cool hollow log in the river at the park I hauled home.

As far as planting - non lilys - I’m not considering planting directly into the gravel given how entrenched the previous plants were. I’m not really big on the hard pot structures/square mesh containers for ponds (but get lilys or others may need it).

For other shallower plants I’m still considering some flexible type barrier. I’m really leaning towards a felt/underlayment type material so it’s thinner, permeable, and easy to fit in weird space, but keep the top smaller than the bottom (root growth space). Second consider burlap but it would break down way too fast.

Im about to hit the store to get some material to make into root bags - other than preference anything I should be aware of?

the root bags sound like they'll work just fine. Planting right in the gravel, too. Without fish, your worries are almost nonexistent.

Tip with that log, if you want one; you can take a feed off your weir line and run a small hose into your log, which if done right, will then give you a waterfall log like mine, but more miniature scale. You'd have to camo the hose but should't be too hard at all. And like before, a valve to limit how much water would get to this log for the effect you want. Just an idea. I love my hollow log waterfall!

No real advice re plants as it's more up to your esthetic than mine. I like large in back, med in middle, and low growing in front. I also like multiple textures and variations in leaf color. For all summer flowering, impatiens are great and love to be immersed in water. Might have to trim them periodically as they can get bushy with all that pond water fertilizer. Btw, if you DON'T have fish, you WILL have to add some liquid fertilizer to keep them healthy. With fish, their waste can do this for you.

[Duxwig]

That’s a good idea for the separate line that’s just sitting there. Could easily put it in the log I think.

Also woohoo on the go ahead on fabric! :)
To the store!
Hoping for some late season quick finds.

[brokensword]

That’s a good idea for the separate line that’s just sitting there. Could easily put it in the log I think.

Also woohoo on the go ahead on fabric! :)
To the store!
Hoping for some late season quick finds.

you might not find much; and I'd recommend you research what you WANT and get that. But, that's now come to be my preference after minimizing cost and getting what I could over time. Now, I want it to look more like I want, not like I have to (with 'leftovers'). And the more I learn/read/see, I start to consider 'can I grow that?' or 'Will that look good in the pond?'. And along the way, you'll make mistakes you'll rectify later, but we all do that. I think I moved my yellow flag iris 3 times since I've had it. Like building waterfalls, you do a lot of trial and error until you really know what you like. This takes a lot of time just sitting on the patio, looking at your creation, so best if you get to it, ya know!! heh heh

[Duxwig]

The good post

Grabbed daddy’s first lily to throw in, but otherwise didn’t get anything. Wasn’t confident on what where and decided to hold off to try and research/think for needless spending.


Got fabric and some more pea stone to make little plant bags to get stuff going, tied off w some jute cord. Wasnt sure if the bags will limit the root / plant size or if they’ll naturally burst out over time (allowing plant to grow).
Cut out some of the purple iris we have and small patches of creeping Jenny.


Did a bunch of measurements to get an idea of water levels for the various areas in an attempt to think of what goes where at what level (or propped higher between rocks if water sensitive)



Wife asking about edging again. Threw two quick ones together as examples for her.

[brokensword]

The good post

Grabbed daddy’s first lily to throw in, but otherwise didn’t get anything. Wasn’t confident on what where and decided to hold off to try and research/think for needless spending.


Got fabric and some more pea stone to make little plant bags to get stuff going, tied off w some jute cord. Wasnt sure if the bags will limit the root / plant size or if they’ll naturally burst out over time (allowing plant to grow).
Cut out some of the purple iris we have and small patches of creeping Jenny.


Did a bunch of measurements to get an idea of water levels for the various areas in an attempt to think of what goes where at what level (or propped higher between rocks if water sensitive)



Wife asking about edging again. Threw two quick ones together as examples for her.

make sure you put a fert tab in the lily; you still have time to get it thriving and maybe even blooming. Your wife will appreciate this!

Yep, make a general plant list you want, get some specimens and start setting up your vision. As with the lily, you have time to get stuff established and it'll help with any re-allocation next year. And yeah, do the edging; even if you have to tweak/move later, it'll still give you a better frame for the plants and again, please your wife. I keep bricks/blocks around just to raise/lower plants as necessary (but, I use pots mostly because my shelves are more or less same depth and fixed). Most plants like to be just under or on top the water level. Some can and will handle deeper, but I feel they don't bloom as well nor grow as quickly, but each plant is different. For instance, I see, routinely, pickerel rush growing underwater. I had some there, but the fish tended to bother them and they did start slower. Since I moved them up and now in a 'wet' area where the fish can't get them, they do better. Just one example. It's fun to actually research the ones you want and figure out how to grow them in YOUR pond. So, enjoy this process, but do get something, at least; it'll wet your appetite and help drive the project forward. Again, get your wife involved with plant selection (at least some, as you look to have a nice amount of area to plant!) and let her feel some ownership; it'll pay dividends down the road!

[Duxwig]

The not so good.

Left the pond running today while at work. It was 90+ Degrees. Water dropped about 1/2-3/4” which seems high?
When it was only partially filled but With water in the channel/not running, the level dropped a bit overnight and some slight dampness under the liner but nothing significantly.

Worried about seam with the water drop level, I lifted and peeked under after it was running today. Was def wet water under the river/seam area and newish mud/soil I don’t believe was there (or as noticeable?) when I seamed it. it went upward towards the bog/tiers.
The river has felt/old liner as underlayment so the water was unable to escape. Pulled all the liner up to the first tier level (felt / carpet padding underlayment). The ground under was wet/damp- not sopping, under was damp, liner appear dry to touch/view.

Got a union for the river as I needed to cut the flex so I could lift and see under the liner adequately. As you can see the there is a water wet/dry area on top of the old liner which extends to around where the bottom seamed liner ends going up. While it’s visually wet, I then expected to see pooled water between the two seamed RPE liners but it wasn’t much and/or no new mud like under the RPE.

I feel like saying it’s the seam area but wife also aggressively watered the soil plants on edges / surrounding area last night, with the horrible clay drainage I feel like there are multiple variables.

The seam

A possible hole in the bog area

Aggressive watering of edges, run off between liner or seeping from surrounding soil/under liner, pooling and unable to seep into soil in the area due to impermeable liner as underlayment.

The already trapped water hippo water from before being forced out /up from the bottom pond area upward to the river as this is the lowest point of exit under the liner compared to any of the sides (edges dry under liner for main pond, but bottoms still higher in elevation than river) and the muddy clay water pushed up/deposited under when it was other cleanish.

I propped and separated the layers a bit and need to think of some water tests.
While it’s propped, Figured once dry I’d put paper towel between the two liners and run water down/over the seamed area only with the hose to concentrate it solely to the area, wet paper towel, problem found.

Alternative to fill water through the back side of the liner and see if it holds like a cup or leaks forward.

BTL stated silicone caulk won’t damage the liner.

Considered slicing above the seam, and reseaming again but this is high risk as I wouldn’t be able to seam further down to to eliminate the other seam (Aka, possible problem seam stays, liner moves further back, adding another seam)
* 2nd idea to cut a whole new piece, seaming it further down the river, and further up the river, essentially containing/covering the leak area with the new liner of the top.

After doing the concentrated water leak test,I’m going to take the easiest route and just silicone over the seam since BTL said there’s no detriment to the seam or liner in general.

[j.w]

Found a really cool hollow log in the river at the park I hauled home.

As far as planting - non lilys - I’m not considering planting directly into the gravel given how entrenched the previous plants were. I’m not really big on the hard pot structures/square mesh containers for ponds (but get lilys or others may need it).

For other shallower plants I’m still considering some flexible type barrier. I’m really leaning towards a felt/underlayment type material so it’s thinner, permeable, and easy to fit in weird space, but keep the top smaller than the bottom (root growth space). Second consider burlap but it would break down way too fast.

Im about to hit the store to get some material to make into root bags - other than preference anything I should be aware of?

I so love that log!

Fiberglass screen door material from Lowes or H-depot comes in rolls and makes good plant holders. I made a floating ring out of it and turned out great!

[brokensword]

The not so good.

Left the pond running today while at work. It was 90+ Degrees. Water dropped about 1/2-3/4” which seems high?
When it was only partially filled but With water in the channel/not running, the level dropped a bit overnight and some slight dampness under the liner but nothing significantly.

Worried about seam with the water drop level, I lifted and peeked under after it was running today. Was def wet water under the river/seam area and newish mud/soil I don’t believe was there (or as noticeable?) when I seamed it. it went upward towards the bog/tiers.
The river has felt/old liner as underlayment so the water was unable to escape. Pulled all the liner up to the first tier level (felt / carpet padding underlayment). The ground under was wet/damp- not sopping, under was damp, liner appear dry to touch/view.

Got a union for the river as I needed to cut the flex so I could lift and see under the liner adequately. As you can see the there is a water wet/dry area on top of the old liner which extends to around where the bottom seamed liner ends going up. While it’s visually wet, I then expected to see pooled water between the two seamed RPE liners but it wasn’t much and/or no new mud like under the RPE.

I feel like saying it’s the seam area but wife also aggressively watered the soil plants on edges / surrounding area last night, with the horrible clay drainage I feel like there are multiple variables.

The seam

A possible hole in the bog area

Aggressive watering of edges, run off between liner or seeping from surrounding soil/under liner, pooling and unable to seep into soil in the area due to impermeable liner as underlayment.

The already trapped water hippo water from before being forced out /up from the bottom pond area upward to the river as this is the lowest point of exit under the liner compared to any of the sides (edges dry under liner for main pond, but bottoms still higher in elevation than river) and the muddy clay water pushed up/deposited under when it was other cleanish.

I propped and separated the layers a bit and need to think of some water tests.
While it’s propped, Figured once dry I’d put paper towel between the two liners and run water down/over the seamed area only with the hose to concentrate it solely to the area, wet paper towel, problem found.

Alternative to fill water through the back side of the liner and see if it holds like a cup or leaks forward.

BTL stated silicone caulk won’t damage the liner.

Considered slicing above the seam, and reseaming again but this is high risk as I wouldn’t be able to seam further down to to eliminate the other seam (Aka, possible problem seam stays, liner moves further back, adding another seam)
* 2nd idea to cut a whole new piece, seaming it further down the river, and further up the river, essentially containing/covering the leak area with the new liner of the top.

After doing the concentrated water leak test,I’m going to take the easiest route and just silicone over the seam since BTL said there’s no detriment to the seam or liner in general.

Geez, had a whole long response and advice and for some reason, it went poof! Okay, so will try again, and be brief this time.

Don't use silicone; I'm finding out from my UV cam testing that it doesn't stick as well as you'd think. Use Sikaflex 295 UV Marine sealant instead. Costs more but it's better.

Now, the water leakage tests you want to do are these; lift the seam up so it's dry, and fill both parts--the pond and the river section. Measure and mark each water level. Wait a day. Check for water loss. If minimal (I consider 1/2" minimal on hot/windy days), you're fine. If more, let the water drop until it stops; somewhere at that level is a hole/rip for you to fix. If no loss, then lower the seamed part and fill up again. Measure and mark. Wait. Check again. Btw, for both tests, you should NOT be running the pump. These are static tests. If no water loss with seam underwater after a day or so, then your leak is probably in the waterfall structure. If you have liner under everything, you should NOT lose water, though splashing can and will lose water for you.

If it's the seam, I'd cut another piece and patch over your seam, in essence doubling it. And this time, take more time/care to insure you're doing it right. Heat should be all you need for this. Study the 'how-to' again just in case you missed something. And both/all parts to be seamed need to be thoroughly cleaned. Probably telling you what you already know, but most of the time, when something goes wrong, it's in missing something along the way.

[Duxwig]

Back from vacation and put the pond back together and bridge up. Tucked some edges and laid some draft v1 rock on the sides and what not. Lillies just floating around - just ordered fert tabs and pans to put them in. Iris and creep Jenny were dry when we left as pond was out of commission. Put them in pond while gone - big rain storm, they were flooded when we came back and took them out to dry a bit again. Lots of frogs now in the pond.

Need to put more time work into bog. Hope to get and clean more pea stone tonight for the bog. Water level is a little high when considering plants.

Had little fabric bags for iris I pulled, then started to make a fish-line sewn version w zip ties for straight non-collapsing tops - then I realized the iris will grab the pea gravel in the fabric bag or the raw pea gravel in bog - either way a mess to remove and best probably to just let grow free and yank/replace peat stone as needed. Just need to stay on maintenance.
Along side the iris camouflage and creeping jenng pockets, considering two marsh marigolds and a sun-power Hosta free rooting on the top of the bog. Marsh marigold seems sold out. Need to check stores on hostas.

Still considering/making fabric bags for the pond plants which inevitably need to be contained vs the bog stuff.

Had an idea of stuff/placement for “in” water stuff.
Thought pickerelweed the back left to grow/cover the power box from view. To the right a corkscrew rush to the right of the log falls. To the right back corner of the shallow embankment some dwarf or micro mini cat tails. Arrowhead in the rocks where the river meets the pond.
For these I planned to make the home sewn fabric bags - pea stone ok for planting medium?
Will it all survive at this point 5a with a pond closure in Nov and hard freeze of everything in Dec/Jan.

In the rocks/plants rows I thought I’d do inpatients with creeping Jenny between - alternating down each side, like two each. Inpatients directly into the rocks wo containers? Was unsure what else would be nice here but not tons of height.

[brokensword]

Back from vacation and put the pond back together and bridge up. Tucked some edges and laid some draft v1 rock on the sides and what not. Lillies just floating around - just ordered fert tabs and pans to put them in. Iris and creep Jenny were dry when we left as pond was out of commission. Put them in pond while gone - big rain storm, they were flooded when we came back and took them out to dry a bit again. Lots of frogs now in the pond.

Need to put more time work into bog. Hope to get and clean more pea stone tonight for the bog. Water level is a little high when considering plants.

Had little fabric bags for iris I pulled, then started to make a fish-line sewn version w zip ties for straight non-collapsing tops - then I realized the iris will grab the pea gravel in the fabric bag or the raw pea gravel in bog - either way a mess to remove and best probably to just let grow free and yank/replace peat stone as needed. Just need to stay on maintenance.
Along side the iris camouflage and creeping jenng pockets, considering two marsh marigolds and a sun-power Hosta free rooting on the top of the bog. Marsh marigold seems sold out. Need to check stores on hostas.

Still considering/making fabric bags for the pond plants which inevitably need to be contained vs the bog stuff.

Had an idea of stuff/placement for “in” water stuff.
Thought pickerelweed the back left to grow/cover the power box from view. To the right a corkscrew rush to the right of the log falls. To the right back corner of the shallow embankment some dwarf or micro mini cat tails. Arrowhead in the rocks where the river meets the pond.
For these I planned to make the home sewn fabric bags - pea stone ok for planting medium?
Will it all survive at this point 5a with a pond closure in Nov and hard freeze of everything in Dec/Jan.

In the rocks/plants rows I thought I’d do inpatients with creeping Jenny between - alternating down each side, like two each. Inpatients directly into the rocks wo containers? Was unsure what else would be nice here but not tons of height.

It's coming along nicely, Dux! Hope you and all the lil Duxlings had a good time! Well rested, right? All set to get back at the hard work of finishing a pond, I betcha!!

Some thoughts re vid and your plant suggestions/ideas; realize, marsh marigold typically dies down in the heat of summer. It's more a cool weather plant and will bloom early spring.

Hosta; depending on species, can be either taller than you think, or more solid re their roots; I don't think I'd put one in your bog as it's fairly narrow and the roots might force water up and behind more than you wish. Stick to less 'solid' rooted plants, imo. You'll want aggressive low growing for max nutrient take-away, but could put some species that are taller in the back. You may have to thin more aggressively as it grows (again, tis fairly narrow there). Another suggestion is to plant some impatiens there; I'm having very good luck with mine and that color splash might look great up there (ask the supervisor about HER opinion). If you put impatiens anywhere on bog hill, you may have to trim often as they CAN and WILL get bushy. In my bog, it's working out fine as I have taller behind but even so, I'm eyeing whether I have to cut them down a bit or not.

Pickerel rush isn't that 'thick' re covering/hiding purposes; it tends to only be a stalk with a couple leaves on it. I have one, love it, but it hides little. The arrow plant will do more and better and CAN be invasive, so keep an eye on it. Too, I found it got a LOT taller than I expected, reaching 2' easily and the flower stalk sometimes higher. So, place this accordingly.

Pea stone is fine for planting in as long as it's getting pond water flowing around it. Otherwise, use unscented pure clay kitty litter (tis cheap); it should be large enough grains to be contained by your window screen plant pockets if you go that route.

You may find in all this that through experience, some plants do well and/or stay the size you want and others do not. You'll no doubt start with plan A and next year, probably tweak into Plan B. Sorta goes with ponding in general, imo.

I note a LOT of exposed perimeter liner in the video; if you can, dig a shalllow 4" depth shelf and place slightly larger rocks ON it to hide the liner behind/under them. @j.w has some good pics showing how well it works. You'll want to keep the sun off your liner.

And consider replacing those in pond rocks with a bed of pea gravel; just my opinion, but you sure lost a lot of volume with those rocks. Might not matter as much now, but it might later if fish are ever introduced. Nice to have both shallow AND deep areas.

Re wintering; most plants can be frozen but take care that wherever you have plants, that they do not dry out when you turn the pump off for the winter. This means any plants growing bareroot on your bog hill will be at risk. Hence why I propose growing them in a small pot (and even then, drying out could hurt); I've got my creeping jenny on MY waterfall hill this way and they make it into spring. There IS some die-back but the core is kept alive. So to sum up; ice is fine around most of the hardy marginal/bog plants but dry conditions will hurt them. If you turn off the pump, your bog should still retain enough water for anything growing there. I've both turned off and left on, my bog and haven't lost any plants either way.

Oh, and if you think you'll get ice, your water lily MUST be deeper than that depth or you'll lose it. Hence, again, a deep area is a good idea, even if you move the water lily there come fall. Check on what ice thickness is typical for your location, but if it's anything like Michigan, you'll want that lily at least 14" down (the tuber crown) if you want it to survive.

[edit]; thinking about your bog hill scenario, I can see a danger in having water IN your pipes all winter as I think you may get freezing and therefore cracking. I think were it mine, since it's elevated, I'd plan on draining the bog box and keeping those pipes water-free. This means any plants you put in your bog would have to be annuals or come out and replanted come spring. Most bogs are near ground level and if deep enough, any water in the pipes won't hurt that much. Too, this is why I like to use the flex pvc and NOT the rigid; flex can handle freezing of water left inside, solid--not so much. Be a shame to have to replace your bog box plumbing every so often. MY bog has no rigid pvc, just flex and large diam drain piping that is 3" down, below where I expect ice to be. Shallower/elevated bogs would be more prone to this.