an interesting exchange

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brokensword
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an interesting exchange

#1

Post by brokensword »

Thought I'd throw this on the board; it was/is an interesting exchange between an original poster, myself, another respondent, then myself again. From FB, the level of knowledge that is lacking is not only astounding, it's borderline criminal. The ideas people get and believe is making me blink! There is SOOOOOO much need for forums like this to educate, and I count myself among those that have learned and need to continue to do so. Anyway, the original question was;

How do I control this foam? (and there was a pic of foam on the pond).




My reply>>>as many have noted, too much proteins or DOCs in the water. It indicates either spawning or you are now on alert for water quality. Most likely, debris in the pond decaying or you're overfeeding (again, unless you're seeing spawning behavior). Not a believer in water changes but in lots of plants and bog filtration. Never used a chemical in 12 years, fish and pond are doing fine.


A different responder——so basically no water changes so you koi are living in a toilet you never flush and change the water. Yes plants take out some of the nutrients but not all of them. So Every ecosystem gets refreshed from rain except yours? Just curious how that works ?


Myself again>>>it works like it does in nature's springless ponds; there is no such thing as pristine water and if you know your chemistry, everything breaks down. You live in a toilet too; consider what you're breathing much? Fish aren't people, they can survive habitats we can't, so that whole 'toilet' think is human-made personification. The ONLY time is matters if the system is NOT balanced and concentrations affect the biology, as in ammonia burn among others. The way it works is the way it's worked since the beginning; naturally. Like that natural pond, my pond gets rain. The ONLY difference, and it's significant (I'm not neglecting this) is our pond stocking level vs Nature's is usually higher. Ever hear of fish kills? That's Nature taking care of an overstocked situation. Same could happen with garden ponds if we don't have that balance. The reason I can do 'almost' nothing for 12 years is BECAUSE of the bog filter and the plants in the pond. They go hand in hand with the immense surface area colonized by the bog. And plants will take out heavy metals too, not to mention some bacteria strains. And the amount of water percentage 'refreshed' by rain on any natural pond is minuscule re effectly altering any of the chemistry. You'd need a flood situation to do that and as you should know, changing the system parameters that fast actually hurts the inhabitants, not helps. I'm not telling you to not change water or put in chems, bottles of bacteria, or use UV, I'm saying none of it is necessary if you balance the system.




heh heh, some of this just gets my blood roiling and I can't help myself; sowwy, I'll try to stay in my lane but really....!!!!

:shock: :o :roll:
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Re: an interesting exchange

#2

Post by darkmuse »

brokensword wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:26 pm Thought I'd throw this on the board; it was/is an interesting exchange between an original poster, myself, another respondent, then myself again. From FB, the level of knowledge that is lacking is not only astounding, it's borderline criminal. The ideas people get and believe is making me blink! There is SOOOOOO much need for forums like this to educate, and I count myself among those that have learned and need to continue to do so. Anyway, the original question was;

How do I control this foam? (and there was a pic of foam on the pond).




My reply>>>as many have noted, too much proteins or DOCs in the water. It indicates either spawning or you are now on alert for water quality. Most likely, debris in the pond decaying or you're overfeeding (again, unless you're seeing spawning behavior). Not a believer in water changes but in lots of plants and bog filtration. Never used a chemical in 12 years, fish and pond are doing fine.


A different responder——so basically no water changes so you koi are living in a toilet you never flush and change the water. Yes plants take out some of the nutrients but not all of them. So Every ecosystem gets refreshed from rain except yours? Just curious how that works ?


Myself again>>>it works like it does in nature's springless ponds; there is no such thing as pristine water and if you know your chemistry, everything breaks down. You live in a toilet too; consider what you're breathing much? Fish aren't people, they can survive habitats we can't, so that whole 'toilet' think is human-made personification. The ONLY time is matters if the system is NOT balanced and concentrations affect the biology, as in ammonia burn among others. The way it works is the way it's worked since the beginning; naturally. Like that natural pond, my pond gets rain. The ONLY difference, and it's significant (I'm not neglecting this) is our pond stocking level vs Nature's is usually higher. Ever hear of fish kills? That's Nature taking care of an overstocked situation. Same could happen with garden ponds if we don't have that balance. The reason I can do 'almost' nothing for 12 years is BECAUSE of the bog filter and the plants in the pond. They go hand in hand with the immense surface area colonized by the bog. And plants will take out heavy metals too, not to mention some bacteria strains. And the amount of water percentage 'refreshed' by rain on any natural pond is minuscule re effectly altering any of the chemistry. You'd need a flood situation to do that and as you should know, changing the system parameters that fast actually hurts the inhabitants, not helps. I'm not telling you to not change water or put in chems, bottles of bacteria, or use UV, I'm saying none of it is necessary if you balance the system.




heh heh, some of this just gets my blood roiling and I can't help myself; sowwy, I'll try to stay in my lane but really....!!!!

:shock: :o :roll:
so why do people call it a toilet? Because fish poop? I hadn't thought of it that way but suppose it can be seen that way. If the water is clear, I don't think the water is the same thing. Am I wrong?
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Re: an interesting exchange

#3

Post by brokensword »

Yes, because they figure the fish swim in their poop-filled toilet. Just a personification. ALL fish in nature swim in their toilet then, it becomes the norm for fish. Silly widdle people...sigh. That said, clear water does not mean clean/healthy water--ammonia, nitrate, nitrite in water is colorless, so...
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Re: an interesting exchange

#4

Post by j.w »

@brokensword good advice and I am guilty tho of letting water in and slowly out of my pond. It's due to poor filtration and having had too many fish in there on my part but I'm trying to make it better so as not to do this water exchange thing as much.
It seems to be better now that I have less fish and my pot edge filter set up better to screen out and keep the muck in the pot. When it gets full I empty it right away.
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Re: an interesting exchange

#5

Post by brokensword »

j.w wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:09 pm @brokensword good advice and I am guilty tho of letting water in and slowly out of my pond. It's due to poor filtration and having had too many fish in there on my part but I'm trying to make it better so as not to do this water exchange thing as much.
It seems to be better now that I have less fish and my pot edge filter set up better to screen out and keep the muck in the pot. When it gets full I empty it right away.
I don't have a problem with slow in, slow out; I just don't like when peeps say it's 'necessary', is all. Nothing wrong with changing out the water if you have it and it's easy. Of course you'll be diluting any contaminants, which will help the fish. If you had to pay for that water and it was expensive, what would you do then? Or if you couldn't physically do this regularly, would your fish die/your pond be filled in? I just don't like that mandate talk, is all, and the responses I get indicate what I'm doing should only result in fish loss and cloudy water. :cool:
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Re: an interesting exchange

#6

Post by j.w »

I have well water and don't pay too much in regards to the electricity to pump the water out of the well so I will continue to do the slow water in slow water out deal. Seems to help for me. If you don't add too much water it doesn't cloud up but too much and yep cloudy and green.
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Re: an interesting exchange

#7

Post by brokensword »

j.w wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:47 pm I have well water and don't pay too much in regards to the electricity to pump the water out of the well so I will continue to do the slow water in slow water out deal. Seems to help for me. If you don't add too much water it doesn't cloud up but too much and yep cloudy and green.
that might be telling you your water has some higher nutrient numbers; it would be interesting to check your water from the well. I'm wondering if you have more than usual phosphates, possibly iron (that might turn it a red color from the iron bacteria; ask me how I know!). Ever tested?
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Re: an interesting exchange

#8

Post by solaria5505 »

j.w wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:47 pm I have well water and don't pay too much in regards to the electricity to pump the water out of the well so I will continue to do the slow water in slow water out deal. Seems to help for me. If you don't add too much water it doesn't cloud up but too much and yep cloudy and green.
so you don't have to put in anything for the chlorine then, right? I've heard well water can be bad for fish if it's straight from the well, though, is that not right? Do you have to test your water? I've used rain water sometimes to fill up the pond but it's small so I dont' need much.
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Re: an interesting exchange

#9

Post by solaria5505 »

j.w wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:47 pm I have well water and don't pay too much in regards to the electricity to pump the water out of the well so I will continue to do the slow water in slow water out deal. Seems to help for me. If you don't add too much water it doesn't cloud up but too much and yep cloudy and green.
so you don't have to put in anything for the chlorine then, right? I've heard well water can be bad for fish if it's straight from the well, though, is that not right? Do you have to test your water? I've used rain water sometimes to fill up the pond but it's small so I dont' need much.
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Re: an interesting exchange

#10

Post by j.w »

brokensword wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:06 am
j.w wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:47 pm I have well water and don't pay too much in regards to the electricity to pump the water out of the well so I will continue to do the slow water in slow water out deal. Seems to help for me. If you don't add too much water it doesn't cloud up but too much and yep cloudy and green.
that might be telling you your water has some higher nutrient numbers; it would be interesting to check your water from the well. I'm wondering if you have more than usual phosphates, possibly iron (that might turn it a red color from the iron bacteria; ask me how I know!). Ever tested?
Yep tested the well water long ago and it was fine. Can't give you details as it was so long ago.
Everything was going great till the fish number grew and grew.
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Re: an interesting exchange

#11

Post by j.w »

solaria5505 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:28 pm
j.w wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:47 pm I have well water and don't pay too much in regards to the electricity to pump the water out of the well so I will continue to do the slow water in slow water out deal. Seems to help for me. If you don't add too much water it doesn't cloud up but too much and yep cloudy and green.
so you don't have to put in anything for the chlorine then, right? I've heard well water can be bad for fish if it's straight from the well, though, is that not right? Do you have to test your water? I've used rain water sometimes to fill up the pond but it's small so I dont' need much.
Nope I don't need to put anything into the water as the well water tested fine long ago. I guess well water could be bad for some if certain things were in there in too large amounts. I used to test my water but after doing it for so long I just quit as everything was going fine. I know that if I tested it awhile back it might have been high in nitrates as I had a lot of fish but now I don't. Things have settled down now and fish are doing better. Rain does come and fill up my pond but rain is kind of acidic so too much might not be good for a pond I hear.
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Re: an interesting exchange

#12

Post by brokensword »

j.w wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:33 pm
brokensword wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:06 am
j.w wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:47 pm I have well water and don't pay too much in regards to the electricity to pump the water out of the well so I will continue to do the slow water in slow water out deal. Seems to help for me. If you don't add too much water it doesn't cloud up but too much and yep cloudy and green.
that might be telling you your water has some higher nutrient numbers; it would be interesting to check your water from the well. I'm wondering if you have more than usual phosphates, possibly iron (that might turn it a red color from the iron bacteria; ask me how I know!). Ever tested?
Yep tested the well water long ago and it was fine. Can't give you details as it was so long ago.
Everything was going great till the fish number grew and grew.
yeah, figured your well water must be fine--you'd have had other issues by now. And I tested a long time ago too, before I had the pond as I was 'new' to having well water. Hard to believe since I live in Suburbia and all around me is 'civilization' that this little neck of the woods here didn't have city water when I built the house back in '87. It has it now, but I figured I paid a pretty penny to have the well put in and it was only 10 years after city water came through...in retrospect, it was a very good decision as I don't have to pay to water my lawn (well, elect bill) no matter how high they want to jack the rates, and of course, free pond water! Was interesting when I did the expansion as by that time, I knew I didn't have to use a hose to fill, just had to tap into the much larger sprinkler pipes I had running through the yard. Filled pretty quickly!

IF you ever run across another test kit (for phosphates is my leaning here), it still might be interesting to know if your well is putting out anything higher than you suspect. I even wonder if the county/city/state you live in has free well testing kits. I'd almost bet they do. Or, here's another way to find it; I went and located MY well on the county map/registers as this is public info. On that report, they showed me the original well digger (whose number I'd lost as it had been 33 years ago) so lucked out and got back in touch when I needed the pump replace. But I say this because maybe there's ALSO a record of water purity for YOUR aquifer. You'd just have to sleuth a bit because I bet there's records and they might have the different elements/hardness, etc listed out. It would at least give you an idea. And I realize it would be better to do a current test but if your aquifer is deep, you might be in luck (re quality etc). I suspect it's fine, though.
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