Pond Reconstruction Project (+ Bog)

[Duxwig]

Another FIL flagstone put in the middle piece of the bog steam/falls thing in right. Maybe makes more sense of some of the vision? Just threw it in so tweaks or other stone, but kinda what going for.

May stop out and get a bit more for top of the fall box to hold it down and the bottom left tier of the final big step.

[j.w]

I likey a lot what you are doing!

[brokensword]

Do slits go up the clean out?

no; you want to be able to flush easily if you have to. Nice symmetrical cutting, Dux!

[brokensword]

Another FIL flagstone put in the middle piece of the bog steam/falls thing in right. Maybe makes more sense of some of the vision? Just threw it in so tweaks or other stone, but kinda what going for.

May stop out and get a bit more for top of the fall box to hold it down and the bottom left tier of the final big step.

once you get to the 'actually going to look like a waterfall, it's hard not to just finish it, isn't it??? heh heh. You got it baaaadddddd, Dux!

[Duxwig]

Haven’t had time to play w blocks too much more but getting anxious.
Hit a bit of a mental block and fielding thoughts to consider how I’m stacking rocks.



Have the split water flow (non-negotiable) from the bog. Nothing about the current setup/stability of the concrete blocks or stones is permanent - just so I can play/visualize. The flattish rock on the left I thought as the middle rock water cascades over - didn’t try to fit/size any framing rocks yet, they could be too visually large for the size (max of like 12” I have which is too large probably)

My issue:
Mixing flagstone and regular rocks for tier drops.

Original plans: Water from falls box onto the flagstone, then to the right and down. Lip on the left is bog overflow water with less “umph” flow.

Was Thinking about rocks, looking at other pics/vids, not a lot of flag/rock mixes for level changes. Seems most committed to just flagstone drops, or use the center flat rock, with two framing rocks.

Thoughts: I like both, but size/space considerations. Flagstone (in my head) would be way easier to pool/drop the water given some of the space than trying to find two appropriately sized frame rocks on sides with the middle stone. This looks great I think when the project is spread over a longer distance for a stream like effect….just not thinking I have the space to make it look well enough.
Mixing flag to framing rocks on the same stream path is visually meh (in my brain). (One tier flag, another framing, back to flag, etc)

I “feel” like I’m committing largely to flag stone drops and probably easier to figure out within the small space….
But….. Agh.

Thoughts?

[brokensword]

Haven’t had time to play w blocks too much more but getting anxious.
Hit a bit of a mental block and fielding thoughts to consider how I’m stacking rocks.



Have the split water flow (non-negotiable) from the bog. Nothing about the current setup/stability of the concrete blocks or stones is permanent - just so I can play/visualize. The flattish rock on the left I thought as the middle rock water cascades over - didn’t try to fit/size any framing rocks yet, they could be too visually large for the size (max of like 12” I have which is too large probably)

My issue:
Mixing flagstone and regular rocks for tier drops.

Original plans: Water from falls box onto the flagstone, then to the right and down. Lip on the left is bog overflow water with less “umph” flow.

Was Thinking about rocks, looking at other pics/vids, not a lot of flag/rock mixes for level changes. Seems most committed to just flagstone drops, or use the center flat rock, with two framing rocks.

Thoughts: I like both, but size/space considerations. Flagstone (in my head) would be way easier to pool/drop the water given some of the space than trying to find two appropriately sized frame rocks on sides with the middle stone. This looks great I think when the project is spread over a longer distance for a stream like effect….just not thinking I have the space to make it look well enough.
Mixing flag to framing rocks on the same stream path is visually meh (in my brain). (One tier flag, another framing, back to flag, etc)

I “feel” like I’m committing largely to flag stone drops and probably easier to figure out within the small space….
But….. Agh.

Thoughts?

well, you've seen mine and that's the way I lean. I use the flagstone flats for cradling and shelves and let the framing rocks do their thing. It really helps to envision this with plants tucked here and there, with some moss growing, etc. At first, I felt the waterfall 'hill' of mine was fairly 'rocky' and it stood out more than I liked, though I tried to get better color rocks and sized them large to small, bottom to top; this helped. But when I added the plants on top the falls and put the creeping jenny to either side of one fall, it looked that much better. And with time and growth, the plants started to balance out that 'all rock effect' nicely. Now, I have to cut the creeping jenny every now and then just to SEE some of the rockwork. So, it's balance. If you HAVE any plants in mind, I'd go get them and even if you just place them in their pot on a temp shelf, it will help you visualize what the final product might be.

I think you almost have to just start in stacking rocks, laying in your shelves, and then stand back and see it for a while, to think and consider how to tweak or re-build. Like I said, you'll prob figure out better composition as you give it time and see it established. All the above said, for my bog wall, I used ALL slate-type rocks. It gives a nice stack wall, if that's what you're going for. I DID have to masonry saw cut all the pieces though, so my actual frontage didn't exceed 4" thickness and that's the problem with that design; you can't just stack them as is because of all the differing widths and thicknesses. Some tailoring needs to come into play as you build upwards (stack wall design). Look at my showcase if you want to see this stack design.

I think if you're going for 'natural', the tumbled river rock look is just fine. Even if you just throw something together, you'll at least get a better idea what works and doesn't for your particular vision. Let the water flow over this and judge that way, before you take it down and start over or tweak. You may be surprised that it looks and acts better than you thought.

[darkmuse]

I like your progress; following along to see how it finishes up! Should look very nice when completed!

[Duxwig]

Got $150+ worth of flagstone from the father in law mainly for the ground path but had a sizable one which I laid on the bottom left.

Started randomly throwing stones in last night. Of course I need waaaaay more rocks but the ugliness is apparent lol. Also not final structure but obv close.

Most of the rocks are mainly rounded which sit/view weird w the angular nature of the blocks. Have some range of sizes with the roundies.

The compact space is making it harder on my visual mind.
How am I going to cover the liner under the flag stone drops? Just jam and stack in rocks under like the pic?
The flag is all the way back against the drop - do I just stack the rocks on top of the flag in the back or move the flag forward? Problem w the latter is the size of the rocks, blocks, and overhang weight leading to a delicate balance.

The top left bog area (no overflow slit cut yet, but imagine a 2-3” lip) has two of my larger rocks just next to each other, to fill the space. Just looks ugly (right now). Trying to think of how rocks stack around the bowls (flag) on the left.
Do I just need more rocks w flat sides?


Not willing to just toss on the liner yet until I get this figured out a bit more, else I’ll end up in the 2 year battle of some new project and the liner being outside and uncovered.

[brokensword]

Got $150+ worth of flagstone from the father in law mainly for the ground path but had a sizable one which I laid on the bottom left.

Started randomly throwing stones in last night. Of course I need waaaaay more rocks but the ugliness is apparent lol. Also not final structure but obv close.

Most of the rocks are mainly rounded which sit/view weird w the angular nature of the blocks. Have some range of sizes with the roundies.

The compact space is making it harder on my visual mind.
How am I going to cover the liner under the flag stone drops? Just jam and stack in rocks under like the pic?
The flag is all the way back against the drop - do I just stack the rocks on top of the flag in the back or move the flag forward? Problem w the latter is the size of the rocks, blocks, and overhang weight leading to a delicate balance.

The top left bog area (no overflow slit cut yet, but imagine a 2-3” lip) has two of my larger rocks just next to each other, to fill the space. Just looks ugly (right now). Trying to think of how rocks stack around the bowls (flag) on the left.
Do I just need more rocks w flat sides?


Not willing to just toss on the liner yet until I get this figured out a bit more, else I’ll end up in the 2 year battle of some new project and the liner being outside and uncovered.

I feel your pain, but know it WILL transform; just need some time and experimentation.

The first thing I thought of was to turn this into 3 areas and work on each individually. I'd ignore the top-over-bog covering flagstone for now; it'll just confuse the overall look and by the time you get to this stage, the top is mostly ornamental as you'll hopefully cover much of this 'covering flag' with plants. So, the other two parts are the re-route to the right, which looks like a good start with those two pieces of flag set as they are, and the front, left-side rock wall. This is the part that 'stuck' out at me the most. You have a couple of flags sticking out, and I'd nix those and go with all rounded, leaving pockets for plants or not. The second part of what I noticed re left-side rock wall is the stones at the top are too large, imo, and you need to go down one size. The rocks on the bottom COULD be larger, if you have room width-wise, but the top and middle should graduate more going upwards. Get some smaller rock to begin filling in some of the larger gaps as this helps solidify the 'look' and actually give you an idea how rocks might fill and support themselves.

And yes, you'll push the flag all the way back, then place smaller rounded rock ON your flag, leaving open areas for your pooling and/or shelf spills. This will also help cut down the size differential of the flag to your rounders and they'll be more commensurate with each other.

The right side spill toward the river; the flags look fine and functional but I'd also see this portion as needing some sort of retainer wall in front. Some of your water may not go to the right and may pour over in front (and this may NOT be your vision). I initially envisioned a wall of rocks going up and creating the channel behind for those two flags and their water re-route. I think I even figured you may use a separate piece of liner that was concave, UNDER your two flags and in front of this 'rock retaining' wall. So visually, you'd see LESS of the flags and have to actually move closer to know they're there. Which might NOT be what your vision wants. You could ameliorate that look by having gaps/breaks IN this retaining wall; water might slip out or might not, depending on the angle and concavity of your re-route flags.

I think if you break this up a bit, it'll get easier. Do the part most important (vision-wise) first and let the other parts match up. Another tip is to consider how nature might do it and try and replicate that, hence larger gravitate down and the smaller roll and fill in the gaps.

But as you're finding out, it just needs some time and experimentation. Even hook up the overflow so you can actually see what happens; it's all part of the overall visualization.

The top cover should be pieces that cantilever over the top and provide some shadow to hide such as bog openings and weir openings. I actually stacked smaller rocks ON my shelf and right up under the weir lip, to hide my weir. Here's where some creativity and artistic talent does help, but experimentation goes a long way. My bog/weir top pieces sit ON my weir box covers (remember, mine are covered and no plants, like yours, so you'll need to be creative here re ANY covering) and then I placed plants between the two which now spill over much of the flagstone. For yours, you can stack rock up to the lip (make one with your liner coming from inside the bog box; this way the water will spill OVER your front rock and not go behind them. This lip should extend out over the rocks a bit. You COULD place one narrow flag just below this lip and have it lay on top some rounders. Again, some creativity here is needed, imo.

Hope any of this helps!

[Duxwig]

Love the feedback.
Need to mentally process and shuffle.

(Top cover still mentally ehhhh but that’s a later touches issue probably).

May also use the chisel to 45 some of the concrete corners of the blocks to soften it a bit as I figure out the final config.

[Duxwig]

Had 5-6 minutes last night finally and got to throw some rocks around.
Sorted my rocks into a single layer and pulled various flat side ones.

Today full of questions as I finally have some hours set aside to pond it up before the chaos of next two weeks again.

I “tested” a bunch of flat rocks on the second drop to see how they fit or look. Also to post pictures as they range from maybe to eeeeeeeeeh. Give your thoughts on my complete newbie stacking experience (again nothing from concrete to certain a blocks permanent). Bigger here. Small there etc. (No giant boulder carrying machines so limited to mainly liftables or dolly)

There’s not much lateral space so I’m not sure the larger flat ones look the best given the water falls on the end of the tier then down the the river. A small flat rock gives some room but nothing major to pool/fall again.
(Don’t worry on exact height, just kind of put the flat in line w the flat block behind it).
Feeling the first drop from the bog will contain some water but not enough lateral space otherwise with rounded rocks vs flagstone.











I had another longer, skinny, flat topped rock I thought could use as the lip for the bog box overflow. (Hard to see in the pics with shadows). Hoping w it being thinner it gives more top area to “pool” before falling.



Thought about turning bottom blocks out to draw the step out visually but way too cramped w rocks. Not looking to drag the mound right-ward to the concrete to try and accommodate.

[brokensword]

Had 5-6 minutes last night finally and got to throw some rocks around.
Sorted my rocks into a single layer and pulled various flat side ones.

Today full of questions as I finally have some hours set aside to pond it up before the chaos of next two weeks again.

I “tested” a bunch of flat rocks on the second drop to see how they fit or look. Also to post pictures as they range from maybe to eeeeeeeeeh. Give your thoughts on my complete newbie stacking experience (again nothing from concrete to certain a blocks permanent). Bigger here. Small there etc. (No giant boulder carrying machines so limited to mainly liftables or dolly)

There’s not much lateral space so I’m not sure the larger flat ones look the best given the water falls on the end of the tier then down the the river. A small flat rock gives some room but nothing major to pool/fall again.
(Don’t worry on exact height, just kind of put the flat in line w the flat block behind it).
Feeling the first drop from the bog will contain some water but not enough lateral space otherwise with rounded rocks vs flagstone.











I had another longer, skinny, flat topped rock I thought could use as the lip for the bog box overflow. (Hard to see in the pics with shadows). Hoping w it being thinner it gives more top area to “pool” before falling.



Thought about turning bottom blocks out to draw the step out visually but way too cramped w rocks. Not looking to drag the mound right-ward to the concrete to try and accommodate.

I'll note individual 'issues, maybe' first so I don't forget them; in that bottom tier of conc blocks, left side, you have one horizontal slab that is ONLY supported by it's back edge--get yourself a couple conc BRICKS and put it under that front right side edge for support. You don't want the weight of rocks and nature moving things via winter to make your rock wall slip.

Q; in the last couple pics, are you planning on having rocks IN your river then, below the bog overflow portion? You might want to take them out, get everything set, turn the water on, and THEN add rocks per taste. I think you may have a jam of water there and it'll be easier to see this happening if you put the rocks in the river one at a time and note how the flow is going.

The divert to the right; I think you're probably going to lose water coming forward at you and less going down to the right than you may want. Which may also create more splash/water loss than you want, as well. That's why I was suggesting a 'rock wall' in front of the flat divert slate AND a separate piece of liner there, to contain the water and truly make it go 'right' toward your river mouth.

I see you trying to set head/gate stones down the front of the 'bog wall' portion; if you plan on any slate there between (which I saw in my mind immediately), I'd get them and place them. It's hard to really truly judge when so much is still missing, ala smaller fill in rocks and obvious places for plants. If you plan on plants, and are going to place pots of soil in nooks between rocks, I'd just get them and place to help you visualize this. You may have to water them to keep them alive until you finally place them unless you're close to completion. These plants should be able to handle constant wetness, so should be marginals/bog plants that like it that way. Now, you will get some moss but it takes time for that to build up on your rocks. AND, you WILL get green algae (string type, too) on any rock that is constantly wet. Bank on it. Mine grows on the waterfall steps and I occasionally take the hose and force it off where it falls into the pond and the fish eat it. You're having no fish, so realize as you hose any algae off, it has to go somewhere. I'd have an open area below this wall where I could put a net to scoop it out after hosing washes it down. I sometimes do this with my waterfalls but lately, just let the fish eat it. There's gonna be some dirt accumulation that washes down with the algae.

In re-looking at the various pics, definitely keep the larger boulders low and graduate to smaller ones as you work your way up. I think it'll look better balanced that way (imo). You may also want to cut your horizontal slabs shorter/narrower depending, as I think you may have trouble covering the corners that stick out in most of your pics. That is, if you look at a profile and think 'stairs/steps' for the whole wall, the front of the tread portion has two points and a front edge; these will show unless the lower step helps cover (as in rocks ON the lower step rising in FRONT of that tread piece to cover it. The flat portions of your stair can have either rounded or flat, but I see 'flat' as more obvious. If you don't want that, you DON'T NEED the flat portion, unless you like the more sturdy nature of conc slabs. You CAN just lay rounded on rounded and angle up to your bog weir. This way, you don't need to worry about covering the front 'tread and it's corners' with camo rocks. I hope all that wasn't confusing; let me know and I'll do some drawings if it is.

I really do think you should go with what comes closest to your vision, and turn the bog on. The falling water will tell you a lot. And yeah, you may work with placing rocks AS THE WATER is falling; then you can make immediate assessment and tweak each part. I'm assuming you have the diverted water to the right as first importance so work on that and get it looking as you want. As noted, you're prob going to lose water forwards on that first flagstone; it may be more than you want happening and that's where the retaining smaller rounded front rock will help, but the liner UNDER the flag is going to do more if you use that separate piece and make a concave chute for the water to run in. You'll be putting smaller flag or rounded rock ON your flag pieces against the liner on the backside just for looks anyhow so more in front to help form a barrier will mesh in just fine. You're already stacking and restacking rocks anyway; might as well see what the water part does to your vision and save yourself some time. As noted earlier, re-building waterfalls is almost an automatic.